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	<title>Comments on: Is Classical Music Dead?</title>
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		<title>By: Is Pop Music Dead? &#171; The Dabbler</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-52522</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Pop Music Dead? &#171; The Dabbler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2013 07:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] weeks ago Mahlerman asked whether classical music was dead. Interestingly, people ask the same question about pop music with far more frequency and surely much [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] weeks ago Mahlerman asked whether classical music was dead. Interestingly, people ask the same question about pop music with far more frequency and surely much [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kai</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-49033</link>
		<dc:creator>Kai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-49033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just saw this here in Germany, via a link by Neue Musikzeitung:

Replace BBC Radio 3 by the names of various ARD radio stations (MDR Figaro and NDR Kultur being the worst examples and WDR 3 the most recent one for dumbing-down). Classic FM by Klassik Radio. Classical Brit Awards by Echo der Stars (yupp, they avoid the term &quot;Klassik&quot; now!).

Then take aside the references to certain politicians and some other particular details, and the article applies to Germany as well. The match is so perfect that it makes me shudder.

But doesn&#039;t the real headline here rather be &quot;is radio dead&quot;?

Concerning the term &quot;classical music&quot;: It is in Germany now routinely used as substitute for &quot;serious music&quot;, a term considered no longer suitable. Rightly so I think. There is an urgent need for &quot;education&quot; and &quot;outreach&quot; due to the horrendous clichés which are so intimidating that people simply do not dare in and see/hear by themselves. Trouble is how often this is misunderstood as a need for dumbing down. This almost first of all applies to the broadcasting organizations, and it is meanwhile my (perhaps radical) opinion that they are rather murders than supporters of &quot;high culture&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just saw this here in Germany, via a link by Neue Musikzeitung:</p>
<p>Replace BBC Radio 3 by the names of various ARD radio stations (MDR Figaro and NDR Kultur being the worst examples and WDR 3 the most recent one for dumbing-down). Classic FM by Klassik Radio. Classical Brit Awards by Echo der Stars (yupp, they avoid the term &#8220;Klassik&#8221; now!).</p>
<p>Then take aside the references to certain politicians and some other particular details, and the article applies to Germany as well. The match is so perfect that it makes me shudder.</p>
<p>But doesn&#8217;t the real headline here rather be &#8220;is radio dead&#8221;?</p>
<p>Concerning the term &#8220;classical music&#8221;: It is in Germany now routinely used as substitute for &#8220;serious music&#8221;, a term considered no longer suitable. Rightly so I think. There is an urgent need for &#8220;education&#8221; and &#8220;outreach&#8221; due to the horrendous clichés which are so intimidating that people simply do not dare in and see/hear by themselves. Trouble is how often this is misunderstood as a need for dumbing down. This almost first of all applies to the broadcasting organizations, and it is meanwhile my (perhaps radical) opinion that they are rather murders than supporters of &#8220;high culture&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Banished To A Pompous Land</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48998</link>
		<dc:creator>Banished To A Pompous Land</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 18:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well Mahlerman that was deeply depressing. And probably horribly true though I&#039;m out of touch with R3 these last few years. It  does seem entirely appropriate to take ones &#039;cerebral masturbation’ to the internet, the home I understand of most of the more purely physical version. An awful gag I know but if you don&#039;t laugh you&#039;ll likely cry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Mahlerman that was deeply depressing. And probably horribly true though I&#8217;m out of touch with R3 these last few years. It  does seem entirely appropriate to take ones &#8216;cerebral masturbation’ to the internet, the home I understand of most of the more purely physical version. An awful gag I know but if you don&#8217;t laugh you&#8217;ll likely cry.</p>
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		<title>By: John Halliwell</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48747</link>
		<dc:creator>John Halliwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Terrific post, Mm, and terrific commenting! I was going to mention my discovery of the Third Programme by way of some knob twiddling in the late fifties, but ever-sensitive to the danger of wandering into double entendre territory, I shall resist. Suffice to state that Vaughan Williams (hiim again!) was worried about the way things were going in 1956:

‘May I give one warning to the BBC Governors? If they persist in giving the public what it is supposed to want, that same public may one day turn on the Governors and demand something better, and the Governors will not be able to supply it. Then, indeed, BBC music will die a well-deserved death. To all of us, audiences and performers alike, the Third Programme has been of inestimable benefit. Let me repeat, it has been the envy of the world. Is something worthy, something splendid, something which we should be proud to claim as unique in the world, to be sacrificed for the sake of the kind of standardised entertainment which is already being mass-produced in every country? Surely we can do better than that; surely we should defend to the last this service which maintains the highest standard of art and scholarship in our midst.’ 

My six-year old granddaughter attended her first concert the other day. It took place at the Bridgewater Hall and featured the magnificent BBC Philharmonic in Britten and Beethoven. She didn’t like Les Illuminations but loved the Pastoral Symphony. She admitted to coughing a fair bit in the second movement. My suggestion to her mother that daughter should have been thrown out at the end of the movement was not regarded as an act of encouragement to go back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terrific post, Mm, and terrific commenting! I was going to mention my discovery of the Third Programme by way of some knob twiddling in the late fifties, but ever-sensitive to the danger of wandering into double entendre territory, I shall resist. Suffice to state that Vaughan Williams (hiim again!) was worried about the way things were going in 1956:</p>
<p>‘May I give one warning to the BBC Governors? If they persist in giving the public what it is supposed to want, that same public may one day turn on the Governors and demand something better, and the Governors will not be able to supply it. Then, indeed, BBC music will die a well-deserved death. To all of us, audiences and performers alike, the Third Programme has been of inestimable benefit. Let me repeat, it has been the envy of the world. Is something worthy, something splendid, something which we should be proud to claim as unique in the world, to be sacrificed for the sake of the kind of standardised entertainment which is already being mass-produced in every country? Surely we can do better than that; surely we should defend to the last this service which maintains the highest standard of art and scholarship in our midst.’ </p>
<p>My six-year old granddaughter attended her first concert the other day. It took place at the Bridgewater Hall and featured the magnificent BBC Philharmonic in Britten and Beethoven. She didn’t like Les Illuminations but loved the Pastoral Symphony. She admitted to coughing a fair bit in the second movement. My suggestion to her mother that daughter should have been thrown out at the end of the movement was not regarded as an act of encouragement to go back.</p>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48746</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cameron &quot;whiskey&quot;: unpatriotic bastard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cameron &#8220;whiskey&#8221;: unpatriotic bastard.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48739</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[1. I wonder whether musical instruction in the lower grades hasn&#039;t fallen off. I find it interesting in watching old Warner Brothers cartoons to notice what a range of musical references the children were thought to be able to recognize--mostly folk songs, but also some classical. My 6th grade class was taken on a field trip to hear the Cleveland Symphony at Severance Hall; this was in the days of George Szell, though I do not remember whether he was there to conduct it or what they played.

2. American radio stations have call signs begin with W east of the Mississipi and K west. Peter Schickele played on this pattern by inventing the classical radio station WTWP: wall-to-wall Pachelbel. One does or did get an awful lot of baroque on US classical stations, in part I think because of the number of short pieces that are easy to fit in.

3. Years ago in The New Republic someone argued that the problem was that the groups that listened to classical music had ceased to play it. As one who can play no instrument and can hardly carry a tune, I really can&#039;t say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. I wonder whether musical instruction in the lower grades hasn&#8217;t fallen off. I find it interesting in watching old Warner Brothers cartoons to notice what a range of musical references the children were thought to be able to recognize&#8211;mostly folk songs, but also some classical. My 6th grade class was taken on a field trip to hear the Cleveland Symphony at Severance Hall; this was in the days of George Szell, though I do not remember whether he was there to conduct it or what they played.</p>
<p>2. American radio stations have call signs begin with W east of the Mississipi and K west. Peter Schickele played on this pattern by inventing the classical radio station WTWP: wall-to-wall Pachelbel. One does or did get an awful lot of baroque on US classical stations, in part I think because of the number of short pieces that are easy to fit in.</p>
<p>3. Years ago in The New Republic someone argued that the problem was that the groups that listened to classical music had ceased to play it. As one who can play no instrument and can hardly carry a tune, I really can&#8217;t say.</p>
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		<title>By: Worm</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48731</link>
		<dc:creator>Worm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48731</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fantastic writing here MM. My main gripe with classic fm is their constant urging by syrupy voiced women purring orgasmically that you should &#039;chill&#039; and &#039;relax&#039;, which unrelaxes me no end as I hate music this beautiful being treated not as art but simply as a relaxation product, to be played in the background but not actually listened to]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic writing here MM. My main gripe with classic fm is their constant urging by syrupy voiced women purring orgasmically that you should &#8216;chill&#8217; and &#8216;relax&#8217;, which unrelaxes me no end as I hate music this beautiful being treated not as art but simply as a relaxation product, to be played in the background but not actually listened to</p>
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		<title>By: mahlerman</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48730</link>
		<dc:creator>mahlerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had an idea that this subject, a bit more edgy than the usual stuff from the top rung of the ladder (sorry Peter), might bring forth some interesting comments - and it has begob.  Yes Brit/Susan - there are now many ways of &#039;consuming&#039; good music, and now that I have cancelled my sub. to Gramophone magazine, and removed R3 as my default radio station (in favour of two US internet stations), I have in effect voted with my wallet and my finger.  Yes PW, I too miss the &#039;informative context&#039; that, to my knowledge, only radio at its best can provide.  I agree with you Peter, that much that has been written since 1913 is pretty indigestible - but surely this fact has to be balanced by another, which reminds us that the last four Sibelius Symphonies, almost half of the output of Maurice Ravel, including both piano concertos, and much of Rachmaninov, was penned during this turbulent period? And that is before you include two great Englishmen, and a handful from your country, whose tonal music my mother would have loved - Samuel Barber, Roy Harris, Aaron Copland - and Bernstein.  Can&#039;t think of a work from the musical theatre that I would place ahead of West Side Story, but if I could it would probably be by any one of half-a-dozen American wizards, one still with us, Sondheim.  What about Richard Rodgers, Harold Arlen, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin and Jerome Kern? Oh yes, and a certain gentleman that I posted on some time ago in They Left Early - George Gershwin. The famously austere Arnold Schoenberg was, bizarrely, a tennis buddy, and George begged the older man for music lessons.  Schoenberg&#039;s often quoted reply was apposite - &#039;I would only make you a second rate Schoenberg, and you are such a good Gershwin already&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had an idea that this subject, a bit more edgy than the usual stuff from the top rung of the ladder (sorry Peter), might bring forth some interesting comments &#8211; and it has begob.  Yes Brit/Susan &#8211; there are now many ways of &#8216;consuming&#8217; good music, and now that I have cancelled my sub. to Gramophone magazine, and removed R3 as my default radio station (in favour of two US internet stations), I have in effect voted with my wallet and my finger.  Yes PW, I too miss the &#8216;informative context&#8217; that, to my knowledge, only radio at its best can provide.  I agree with you Peter, that much that has been written since 1913 is pretty indigestible &#8211; but surely this fact has to be balanced by another, which reminds us that the last four Sibelius Symphonies, almost half of the output of Maurice Ravel, including both piano concertos, and much of Rachmaninov, was penned during this turbulent period? And that is before you include two great Englishmen, and a handful from your country, whose tonal music my mother would have loved &#8211; Samuel Barber, Roy Harris, Aaron Copland &#8211; and Bernstein.  Can&#8217;t think of a work from the musical theatre that I would place ahead of West Side Story, but if I could it would probably be by any one of half-a-dozen American wizards, one still with us, Sondheim.  What about Richard Rodgers, Harold Arlen, Cole Porter, Irving Berlin and Jerome Kern? Oh yes, and a certain gentleman that I posted on some time ago in They Left Early &#8211; George Gershwin. The famously austere Arnold Schoenberg was, bizarrely, a tennis buddy, and George begged the older man for music lessons.  Schoenberg&#8217;s often quoted reply was apposite &#8211; &#8216;I would only make you a second rate Schoenberg, and you are such a good Gershwin already&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48711</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 16:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48711</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand there&#039;s a move towards getting &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.itv.com/news/london/2012-10-03/every-pupil-in-highbury-school-given-musical-instrument/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more children playing classical&lt;/a&gt; instruments at school. And there&#039;s still a BBC Young Musician of the Year contest - perhaps it could become the next X-Factor? Or, perhaps (thinking of Gaw&#039;s previous post) in their efforts to be &#039;alternative&#039; people will start flocking to &#039;music appreciation&#039; classes (or listening to Melvyn Bragg&#039;s In Our Time). What goes around comes around, the hipsters of the future may well be aficionados of classical music.

And I don&#039;t think that classical music is dying, but it is evolving. Many people don&#039;t enjoy sitting in a stuffy concert hall, on an uncomfortable seat watching a man waving a stick in front of the stage. There are new approaches, like the less formal concerts at Village Underground in Shoreditch, where people don&#039;t &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.naxos.com/education/enjoy2_concertmanners.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;have to sit still.&lt;/a&gt; This may open up the world of classical music to the masses rather than maintaining it as the preserve of the high-brow intelligensia.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand there&#8217;s a move towards getting <a href="http://www.itv.com/news/london/2012-10-03/every-pupil-in-highbury-school-given-musical-instrument/" rel="nofollow">more children playing classical</a> instruments at school. And there&#8217;s still a BBC Young Musician of the Year contest &#8211; perhaps it could become the next X-Factor? Or, perhaps (thinking of Gaw&#8217;s previous post) in their efforts to be &#8216;alternative&#8217; people will start flocking to &#8216;music appreciation&#8217; classes (or listening to Melvyn Bragg&#8217;s In Our Time). What goes around comes around, the hipsters of the future may well be aficionados of classical music.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t think that classical music is dying, but it is evolving. Many people don&#8217;t enjoy sitting in a stuffy concert hall, on an uncomfortable seat watching a man waving a stick in front of the stage. There are new approaches, like the less formal concerts at Village Underground in Shoreditch, where people don&#8217;t <a href="http://www.naxos.com/education/enjoy2_concertmanners.asp" rel="nofollow">have to sit still.</a> This may open up the world of classical music to the masses rather than maintaining it as the preserve of the high-brow intelligensia.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://thedabbler.co.uk/2013/01/is-classical-music-dead/#comment-48661</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 14:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thedabbler.co.uk/?p=29481#comment-48661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The old Third Programme had its problems – for example, there was a time in the 1960s when it had to share its airwaves with something called Network Three, which made time, in its early days at least, for programmes on subjects like pigeon-fancying, cycling, and bridge (the card game not the composer). But in spite of this the Third managed, at its best, to present music well and to put it beside other material (talks, drama) that together made it, for this listener at least, an education. What we have now is a shadow of what there was, mainly for the reasons you mention, Mahlerman – especially the replacement of informed commentary with inappropriate presentation styles and the assumption by many of the producers and presenters that their listeners are thick. The internet helps a lot, as Brit says, but it can&#039;t replace the informative context that radio can provide.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The old Third Programme had its problems – for example, there was a time in the 1960s when it had to share its airwaves with something called Network Three, which made time, in its early days at least, for programmes on subjects like pigeon-fancying, cycling, and bridge (the card game not the composer). But in spite of this the Third managed, at its best, to present music well and to put it beside other material (talks, drama) that together made it, for this listener at least, an education. What we have now is a shadow of what there was, mainly for the reasons you mention, Mahlerman – especially the replacement of informed commentary with inappropriate presentation styles and the assumption by many of the producers and presenters that their listeners are thick. The internet helps a lot, as Brit says, but it can&#8217;t replace the informative context that radio can provide.</p>
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